outdoor truck park and offices - camera recommendation please

[floods7]

I am setting up a 40 camera system covering a truck park, parking lots, and office buildings. I will be using IP cameras with a Dahua NVR. The person that asked me to install this is really key on 8MP. I don't know a ton about cameras but I know that MP isn't everything. We are trying to stay around $110-$130 a camera. Is there something you guys can recommend for that price range and that is 8MP?

I will be using these cameras for license plate recognition as well as basic surveillance 24/7. The parking lot and truck park is lit with light throughout the night so I'm not trying to see in the pitch black of night but I would like a good night camera that can recognize license plates and give the best overall performance.

 

[Flintstone61]

LPR varifocal great optics.

Amazon.com : Loryta IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E IP Camera 2MP Starlight WDR IR Bullet AI Network Camera English Version : Camera & Photo

Amazon.com : Loryta IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E IP Camera 2MP Starlight WDR IR Bullet AI Network Camera English Version : Camera & Photo

www.amazon.com

i have 2 cams stacked vertically

 

[wittaj]

Chase sensor size not MP.

At $110-$130 range, you will be getting budget cameras that are 8MP on the sensor designed for 2MP and will suck at night.

The distance to be covered from the camera to the object location is the most important factor and more important than MP.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

A few other tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).


You have to decide, do you want plates or overview, you cannot have both with one camera, especially if you do not have enough light.

Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP 5241-Z12E camera (that is all that is needed for plates):

See this thread on the importance of focal length of MP.

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Flintstone61]

You could use a less expensive "overview" camera to compliment a "targeted" LPR camera, togther they can paint a more comprehensive picture of the vehicle.
If your budget is 40 cam @ $ 120--130 dollars, i'd say get some really good mission critical cams for key areas, and perhaps less expensive cams for easier tasks.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Your budget for cameras is a little low. As wittaj said, don't chase megapixels but chase sensor sizes. Here's a basic guide for you if you want to have good low light performance. Remember that just about any camera can be made to produce a nice color still shot at night, but the moment motion happens, like someone with bad intentions shows up, all you'll get is blurs and ghosting. The video will be useless. Every camera needs to be adjusted to produce the best possible picture for the location and lighting it can see.

Disclaimer - These sizes are what the manufacturers advertise and may, or may not, be the true size of the sensor in the camera.
1/3" = .333" Great for 720P
1/2.8" = .357" (think a .38 caliber bullet) Great for 2MP
1/1.8" = .555" (bigger than a .50 caliber bullet or ball) Great for 4MP
1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round) Great for 8MP

Here are a couple of links to threads showing what some "popular" cameras actually produce at night. These cameras fit into your budget but are basically useless.

Compiled by mat200 -

Reolink: Deconstruction of a dangerous misleading youtube review "Finding the BEST 4K Security Camera NVR Package (Reolink vs Amcrest vs Swann)"

Executive Summary: DO NOT be a sheep. Ask what a reviewer can be missing, ask if a reviewer is using hype words to sell the cheapest product. Test your cameras and kits right away. Just do a bench test. Test real world conditions. Test moving suspects. Test at night, test at day. Use a test rig...

ipcamtalk.com

A collection of various consumer grade failures -

The Typical picture of a Perp on Nextdoor-type Apps with Consumer Grade Cameras like Ring, Nest, Arlo, Canary, Wyze, etc.

Love these posts on Nextdoor type apps LOL. This thread will be used for members to post the poor quality consumer grade type camera images that we see people post to the Nextdoor type apps. Can anyone make out this person that went thru their cars LOL.... And this thread is where members...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Flintstone61]

The person asking you to install this maybe an uninformed, clueless, parrot squawking about 8MP...like he knows better. Better get his ass straightened out on the facts before you spend dime 1.

 

[Flintstone61]

ipc 5442AS- LED 6MM.... happy accident. another 5241 daytime shot, with complimentary overview shot.
Focal length gives clear plates in the Parking lot corner.

 

[samplenhold]

If you are serious about LPR, please see the threads below and the ones linked above.

New to LPR? Considerations Before You Begin

Thought I would throw together a post on my experiences so far with LPR in an effort to help others that are considering running down that rabbit hole. There are some practical considerations you should know about LPR. I am approaching this from the position of using Blue Iris and Plate...

ipcamtalk.com

LPR Case Study: Scoping, Planning, Proof of Concept, Installation, & Results

Introduction This thread is about my journey into LPR (License Plate Recognition) after having about 18 months of experience with IP cams and having quite a bit of my system finished. I am not an expert on LPR, or IP cameras either. But I have spent a lot of time working with my system and...

ipcamtalk.com

Use of Overview and LPR Cams to Document Midnight Vehicle Distributing Offensive Flyers on Lawns

We were out of town and I was checking my cams remotely one morning and noticed one of the Deputies that regularly patrol my subdivision had been at my front door. She has come to me a few times requesting video as she knows I have fairly good coverage of the streets at my corner. I noticed that...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[mat200]

I am setting up a 40 camera system covering a truck park, parking lots, and office buildings. I will be using IP cameras with a Dahua NVR. The person that asked me to install this is really key on 8MP. I don't know a ton about cameras but I know that MP isn't everything. We are trying to stay around $110-$130 a camera. Is there something you guys can recommend for that price range and that is 8MP?

I will be using these cameras for license plate recognition as well as basic surveillance 24/7. The parking lot and truck park is lit with light throughout the night so I'm not trying to see in the pitch black of night but I would like a good night camera that can recognize license plates and give the best overall performance.

Hi @floods7

Have you done IP camera work before?

Do remember to check out the Cliff Notes, and the DORI section there as well as the LPR section here on the forum.

I concur with @wittaj @Flintstone61 @sebastiantombs $110-130 per camera is too low with the current supply chain and related higher prices.

This is probably the best recommendation "If your budget is 40 cam @ $ 120--130 dollars, i'd say get some really good mission critical cams for key areas, and perhaps less expensive cams for easier tasks. " - @Flintstone61

 

[floods7]

First of all, thank you for all the quick help!

Secondly, I am a computer engineer. I usually write software, databases, build networks and server and when needed I also help them out with their cameras. Usually, things like troubleshooting a previously installed system or running cabling. So yes, I have done IP camera work before but I have never had to be the one to decide on what type of hardware to use.

 

[wittaj]

This is always an interesting read...

Expecting to much

we have a business system that consisted of all illustra 2mp mini domes connected to an exaqvision server at 1080p. The owner was not impressed with the resolution, so I replaced 1 camera with a DS-2CD2185FWD-1 4K dome The owner is still not happy with the performance as he doesn’t think it...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[mat200]

First of all, thank you for all the quick help!

Secondly, I am a computer engineer. I usually write software, databases, build networks and server and when needed I also help them out with their cameras. Usually, things like troubleshooting a previously installed system or running cabling. So yes, I have done IP camera work before but I have never had to be the one to decide on what type of hardware to use.

Hi @floods7

There's a lot more new topics / nuances to IP cameras than a computer engineer may imagine at first .. so definitely check out the cliff notes and DORI section.

If you're going with 8MP cameras, get the larger sensor if low light performance matters in any way ( note, low light .. not "no light" ) .. ( "1/1.2" = .833" (bigger than a 20mm chain gun round) Great for 8MP" - sebastiantombs )

ideally you would have a couple of models to do a comparison / contrast test with ..

 

[The Automation Guy]

8mp cameras are great during the day. If that is all you want to capture, then an 8mp camera in the $100-150 price range will work fine. However, if you expect to capture usable footage in low light or at night, then you have to pay attention to the sensor size as well. Putting 8mp of pixels on a small sensor means the individual pixels are tiny and can't produce good low/no light images. The larger the sensor size, the larger each individual pixel can be and the better the overall performance in low/no light. Keeping this in mind, there are some guidelines we like to follow regarding resolution and pixel size to ensure decent low/no light performance.

On a 1/2.8" sensor - no more than 2mp (1080) resolution
On a 1/1.8" sensor - no more than 4mp (2k) resolution
On a 1/1.2" - no more than 8mp (4k) resolution.

Therefore, if the person asking for the installation really wants 8mp cameras, then you need to look at cameras with at least a 1/1.2" sensor size. There are only a couple of options available currently. Most cheap and/or consumer grade 4k cameras use a 1/2.8" or 1/3.2" sensor (which is even smaller). That means the individual pixels are 4 times smaller than the pixels are with a 2mp resolution camera on the same size sensor. That means the 4k camera needs 4x the amount of light just to achieve the performance of the 2mp camera. For example, whatever a 2mp camera can capture with a 60 watt light - to get the same performance from a 4k camera you'll need the equivalent of 240 watts of light, etc, etc, etc.

This is only half of the story of course - you also have to consider focal length (or field of view). You have to use cameras with an appropriate FOV for the goal. A 2.6mm focal length camera typically provides a FOV around 112° and a 3.6mm focal length camera typically provides a FOV of around 90°. Even with a 4k camera, you can only expect to get detailed enough footage to identify a stranger up to a maximum of about 20-25'. Anything farther away from the camera and you won't be able to identify a stranger. To get detailed enough footage at farther distances, you need to use cameras with a narrower FOV. It's not uncommon to use cameras with focal length out to 32mm or even father. If you need a lot of zoom, then a PTZ camera may be required. Many of them can reach out to 150mm and farther.

All this being said, you'll quickly find out that $100-150 is going to be on the low end of cameras. You really need to have about a $250 per camera budget for fixed cameras - PTZ cameras will cost a lot more. Honestly it is better to spend $250 per camera to get something worth having, even if it means you end up with only 1/2 of the cameras/coverage. I'd rather have 1/2 the coverage, but with a system that provides detailed enough images to identify strangers at my key locations than have 100% coverage that sucks and can't be used by the police to solve any crimes. You can always add to a good system to get more coverage. The only way to make a bad system better is to replace everything and start over.

To sell this concept to the "powers that be", I'd recommend you get a camera that he likes and wants to use (and is in his budget) and then you get a camera that is recommended here and you temporarily mount them next to each other in different locations around the facility. Once you dial in the camera settings to provide the best footage you'll be able to do a direct comparison between the two cameras. The results will generally speak for themselves and the choice will be clear.

 

[floods7]

Wow thank you all for all the info. Very helpful and some good reads in there.
With everything I have read and what I was able to talk my boss into will be a mixture of 8MP cameras around the area and buildings and lower MP cameras for the entrance and exit so we can read the license plate. The area I am covering always has lights on and all throughout the night. Attached are a few pictures of the area I am covering.

I know..i know lol .. I should get some pictures of the place at night

 

[Old Timer]

That's a lot of area. Take some time to add the cameras. You will find as you add them, there will be places where they work better,
so may have to move some, or just add some to cover all of the bases. You have a chunk of money there, so I'm sure they won't mind
raising the budget a little to get good to excellent cameras to help protect the fleet. It's a small percentage of what damage could be done
with one vandal coming through at night.

 

[mat200]

Wow thank you all for all the info. Very helpful and some good reads in there.
With everything I have read and what I was able to talk my boss into will be a mixture of 8MP cameras around the area and buildings and lower MP cameras for the entrance and exit so we can read the license plate. The area I am covering always has lights on and all throughout the night. Attached are a few pictures of the area I am covering.

I know..i know lol .. I should get some pictures of the place at night

Hi @floods7

I would look to pick up perhaps 3-4 good models to test with .. remember to test at various times of the day / week .. as well as test for what you are looking for .. example, have someone wear a hoodie and cap and walk around the lot pretending to be a thief .. have a car drive on the lot .. check if you capture the key details you need ..

 

[The Automation Guy]

Those poles appear to be about 50' away from each other. The "Identify" range of most 3.6mm 4k cameras is a max of 25'. This means you will need four cameras (3.6mm cameras pointing in each direction - N, S, E, W) on every pole in the lot. If you can do this, you'll get pretty good coverage. Add a few more on the building to protect any entrances, the parking spaces next to the building, etc and a couple to get license plates of vehicles coming and going from the parking lot, and you should have a pretty robust and effective setup.

 

[Griswalduk]

Looks like a lot of ground to cover. Any thoughts on spotter cameras and a couple of PTZs with auto tracking?

 

[floods7]

Yes, I was going to use 4 PTZ spread out with auto tracking.

Can anyone recommend a good camera for license plates? I know it is mostly about sensor size but I would like a recommendation from the community. Keep in mind we are going the economical route, so I'm looking for best bang for the buck

 

[The Automation Guy]

Yes, I was going to use 4 PTZ spread out with auto tracking.

Can anyone recommend a good camera for license plates? I know it is mostly about sensor size but I would like a recommendation from the community. Keep in mind we are going the economical route, so I'm looking for best bang for the buck

Actually it's more about the focal length and ensuring that the camera can zoom tight enough into the expected vehicle's path to be able to read the plates well. You want the vehicle to effectively take up the entire screen (or close to it) to ensure that the license plate is large enough to be legible. If the camera doesn't have enough "zoom reach", the license plate will be too small to be readable in all conditions - even if the focus is spot on.

Most of us choose something like the Dahua 5231-z12e because it has a variable focal length of 5.3mm - 64mm. It can be an effective license plate reader out to at least 125'.