Newbie here seeking advice (as all other noobs).

kouma

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Disclaimer:

I am still reading through Cliff Notes and other threads.

Boring background story:

My house came with DW (digital watchdog) DVR setup of three cameras PTZ installed in 2012. Anyways, none of these cameras work now and I want to upgrade the whole setup. So I went to local Costco and purchased this ( ) thinking I can simply plug-n-play, wishful thinking :D Anyways, after taking one of the PTZ cameras down I noticed that the coax cable is separated from the power, not connected like the Costco one and I can't simply use them. I thought maybe I can pull (fish tape) the old cable and attach the new one to it, boy I was wrong. The cables were professionally installed when the house was first built (also in 2012), long story short, I broke the old coax from pulling too hard on it. So I gave up and return the cameras to Costco and decided to leave the PTZ mounted on the walls (security through ab-security) and go the IVR route and run new cables.

Current Equipment:

Knowing I will need cable, I purchase a box of this plenum cable: I have vSphere 6.7 running on a cluster of 3 servers (200GB+ memory), so I have plenty compute and memory resources if a standalone NVR was not an option.
I also have a cluster of Cisco catalyst 3750X POE switches, again if a standalone NVR was no an option.

My requirements:
Really, my wife's requirements, is for it to be a clean and easy to install and use system. No cables, holes, nerd-level knowledge requirements to use the APP. As simple as using Lorex Home app or Ring Doorbell.

My area is pretty safe; camera is really for piece of mind and liability issues, two weeks ago a car slid because of black ice and hit my neighbor's car and took off. If my DW setup was working I would have been able to help him out, but I couldnt.

My dilemma:

1- I can't use the existing PTZ equipment/holes
2- I do not want to get it professionally done fearing the cost
3- I do not want wireless cameras, I need 24/7 recording and I am not doing this battery business
4- To meet my wife's requirements, I think I might need to mount the cameras and the IVR system in the attic area, however this will limit my ability to use my current infrastructure which is in the basement.

My questions:

1- Based on the attached pictures, blue circles are current DW PTZ cameras and red circles are where I would like the new cameras. Do you think this is a good design?
2- My house is very tall, so the red circles are about 30FT high, would it be a good idea to mount cameras that high?
3- It seems that the 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill" according to sebastiantombs. Do you recommend these cameras for I am trying to do?
4- Would any of the current NVR's carried by Costco.ca are worth considering?
5- Is the cable type I purchased good for the task at hand?

Thank you in advance! I will keep reading while I am checking this thread.
 

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CCTVCam

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Your cameras are too high. For good chances of facial recognition they need to be 5.5-7 feet. At 30ft all you're going to record is the top of someone's hair and not even that if they're wearing a cap.
 

sebastiantombs

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30 feet high is about 23 feet too high, unless you just want to see the tops of heads. Cameras need to b down around seven feet, eight feet absolute maximum, to have any chance of getting a useable identification shot, especially when close to the camera. Many people use multiple cameras around the doors, one overview, one mounted at about six feet close to the door and some even use ground mounted cameras that look up to get reliable identification video.

At the garage, cameras mounted now higher than the top of the doors is the way to go. Two cameras are normally used, one on each side of the door, to provide full coverage even if vehicles are parked in the driveway. If it's a two car garage a third camera, looking straight out, is also a good idea. In your case the ones on the side would be mounted above the coach lights to avoid glare and aimed for overlapping coverage.

One camera on that narrow side should be two cameras, one at each end. mounted lower down, and looking toward each other to "get 'em coming and going" no matter what way the enter from.

Kits are generally not all that attractive. The cameras are all the same lens size, typically 2.8mm, which are nice for overview but useless for identification unless the subject is within two meters of the camera and the camera is mounted down around 2 meters.

The best thing to do is buy one varifocal, set up a test rig, and test every location using the web GUI of the camera to determine orientation and focal length. A test rig can be a bucket full of sand or stones with a 2x4-8' to mount the camera to so it can be easily moved around but is still stable enough. Test with a buddy who's wearing a ball cap and/or hoodie and playing a bad guy. Check to make sure you can actually identify who it is without relying on the fact that you already know who it is.
 

kouma

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Amazing fast feedback. Thank you both! so that takes care of my attic idea. You would be surprised on the amount of videos on YouTube showing how to install cameras in the attic, all of which are definitely above 8ft. That's why forums like these are valuable :D
 

SouthernYankee

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1) make sure your cable is solid copper, not stranded, not CCA( copper clad aluminum ) , use AWG 23 or 24 .
2) your cameras are mounted way to high, they will show what happened not who did . To identify a person, camera no higher than 7 ft.
3) test each camera before installing with a short premade cable before installing the camera, On an NVR test camera one, in rj45 one on the NVR, Camera two in rf45 two, The NVR setup camera based upon the RJ45 connector they are installed in. DO NOT MIX THEM UP
4) recommended install 2 cameras at the garage pointing down the driveway, mount no higher than the topo of the ge door.
5) recommended install 2 cameras at the front door, plus the door bell camera, one mounted at the bottom base of the post pointing at the door. one mounted at the top of the overhang pointing at the package drop area.
6) mounting the NVR in the attic will kill it in the summer heat.
7) look at running ethernet over coax.

I am no fan of camera kits, The price is cheap because they just reduced the quality and features.
 

wittaj

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Too many people get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" like a Reolink or Arlo or Lorex can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most) for a 4k camera. There currently isn't an economical 8MP/sensor combination at the moment that any would recommend.

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens popular in the Costco kits, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, so at a height of 30 feet tall it will be useless as others have said.

1604638118196.png



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Arlo cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police. Reolinks are even worse than these at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results and fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Don't discount Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR either. Keep in mind an NVR is a stripped down computer after all....and isn't true plug-n-play like people believe. You still have to dial the cameras into your setting.

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so.

NVRs from the box units like a Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.
 

mat200

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Disclaimer:

I am still reading through Cliff Notes and other threads.

Boring background story:

My house came with DW (digital watchdog) DVR setup of three cameras PTZ installed in 2012. Anyways, none of these cameras work now and I want to upgrade the whole setup. So I went to local Costco and purchased this ( ) thinking I can simply plug-n-play, wishful thinking :D Anyways, after taking one of the PTZ cameras down I noticed that the coax cable is separated from the power, not connected like the Costco one and I can't simply use them. I thought maybe I can pull (fish tape) the old cable and attach the new one to it, boy I was wrong. The cables were professionally installed when the house was first built (also in 2012), long story short, I broke the old coax from pulling too hard on it. So I gave up and return the cameras to Costco and decided to leave the PTZ mounted on the walls (security through ab-security) and go the IVR route and run new cables.

Current Equipment:

Knowing I will need cable, I purchase a box of this plenum cable: I have vSphere 6.7 running on a cluster of 3 servers (200GB+ memory), so I have plenty compute and memory resources if a standalone NVR was not an option.
I also have a cluster of Cisco catalyst 3750X POE switches, again if a standalone NVR was no an option.

My requirements:
Really, my wife's requirements, is for it to be a clean and easy to install and use system. No cables, holes, nerd-level knowledge requirements to use the APP. As simple as using Lorex Home app or Ring Doorbell.

My area is pretty safe; camera is really for piece of mind and liability issues, two weeks ago a car slid because of black ice and hit my neighbor's car and took off. If my DW setup was working I would have been able to help him out, but I couldnt.

My dilemma:

1- I can't use the existing PTZ equipment/holes
2- I do not want to get it professionally done fearing the cost
3- I do not want wireless cameras, I need 24/7 recording and I am not doing this battery business
4- To meet my wife's requirements, I think I might need to mount the cameras and the IVR system in the attic area, however this will limit my ability to use my current infrastructure which is in the basement.

My questions:

1- Based on the attached pictures, blue circles are current DW PTZ cameras and red circles are where I would like the new cameras. Do you think this is a good design?
2- My house is very tall, so the red circles are about 30FT high, would it be a good idea to mount cameras that high?
3- It seems that the 5442 series of cameras by Dahua is the current "king of the hill" according to sebastiantombs. Do you recommend these cameras for I am trying to do?
4- Would any of the current NVR's carried by Costco.ca are worth considering?
5- Is the cable type I purchased good for the task at hand?

Thank you in advance! I will keep reading while I am checking this thread.
Welcome @kouma

I would place 3+ cameras in the rough areas as marked ( remember to test and confirm positions - as I am only guessing that this would be a good placement.. )

I'd use the attached garage for this setup.

1 location each side of the garage,
1 location by the front door.

Run N+1 cat6 to each location ( thus 2 cable runs to each location ).
 

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kouma

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1) make sure your cable is solid copper, not stranded, not CCA( copper clad aluminum ) , use AWG 23 or 24 .
2) your cameras are mounted way to high, they will show what happened not who did . To identify a person, camera no higher than 7 ft.
3) test each camera before installing with a short premade cable before installing the camera, On an NVR test camera one, in rj45 one on the NVR, Camera two in rf45 two, The NVR setup camera based upon the RJ45 connector they are installed in. DO NOT MIX THEM UP
4) recommended install 2 cameras at the garage pointing down the driveway, mount no higher than the topo of the ge door.
5) recommended install 2 cameras at the front door, plus the door bell camera, one mounted at the bottom base of the post pointing at the door. one mounted at the top of the overhang pointing at the package drop area.
6) mounting the NVR in the attic will kill it in the summer heat.
7) look at running ethernet over coax.

I am no fan of camera kits, The price is cheap because they just reduced the quality and features.
Thank you SouthernYankee for the quick response. I have attached a picture that details the cable specifications, it says conductor type is SOLID. Does that mean its solid copper?

Your installation approach in number 3 is very interesting and sounds like great way for testing all ports and cameras. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regarding the camera placements, 2 at the garage, which also what sebastiantombs suggested seems to be the way to go. I am still not clear on your front door placements, so I modified the picture with new red circles to see if this is what you meant.
 

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kouma

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Too many people get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" like a Reolink or Arlo or Lorex can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them. And how much additional light is needed at night (when it matters most) for a 4k camera. There currently isn't an economical 8MP/sensor combination at the moment that any would recommend.

Take a look at this chart - to identify someone with the 2.8mm lens popular in the Costco kits, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, so at a height of 30 feet tall it will be useless as others have said.

1604638118196.png



My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Arlo cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police. Reolinks are even worse than these at night - he tried those first and sent back to get Arlos....and a year later he is regretting that choice too.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4k Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results and fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location.

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him.

Don't discount Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR either. Keep in mind an NVR is a stripped down computer after all....and isn't true plug-n-play like people believe. You still have to dial the cameras into your setting.

When I was looking at NVRs, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal, and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR. You don't need to buy components and build one.

Many of these refurbished computers are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so.

NVRs from the box units like a Lorex cap out incoming bandwidth (which impacts the resolution and FPS of the cameras). The Lorex NVR maxes out at 80Mbps and truly only one or a couple cameras that will display 4K. My neighbors was limited to that and he is all upset it isn't 4K for all eight channels and he was capped out at 4096 bitrate on each camera so it was a pixelated mess.
Thank you wittaj for opening my eyes on the power of lenses and FOV, I admit I am one of those 4K Costco suckers and I am glad I was able to return my Lorex and find this forum before it was too late. Since my attic options are out the window, I will look at utilizing my infrastructure and running Blue Iris :)
 

kouma

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kouma

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Welcome @kouma

I would place 3+ cameras in the rough areas as marked ( remember to test and confirm positions - as I am only guessing that this would be a good placement.. )

I'd use the attached garage for this setup.

1 location each side of the garage,
1 location by the front door.

Run N+1 cat6 to each location ( thus 2 cable runs to each location ).
You just said something awesome! the positions you pointed out can all be reached from the Garage. This might actually make it a lot easier to run cables. I could have a POE switch there as well, then link it to my basement infrastructure. Thank you! I can add another camera to the right of the garage to cover that side panel. So four cameras can all be connected from inside the garage! Also the garage is a lot cooler in the summer than the attic.

For these four cameras, do you have a model recommendation? Would 5442 series of cameras by Dahua do the trick?
 
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CCTVCam

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its copper! one thing out of the way lol
Have you scratched it? CCD is copper clad aluminium in other words copper plated. You need to verify what if in the centre / below the surface so you know if it's copper or aluminium plated to look like copper.

I alos wouldn't rule out this Hikvision as it's probably the best combination of pixels, picture quality and nightvision currently at the affordable end of the market: Hikvision ColorVu + 4K (DS-2CD2087G2-L)
 

wittaj

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The 5442 series is the current go-to camera. As others have said, go with the varifocal lens instead of the fixed so that you can dial it up to the area you want to cover. Hiks are good but there is a current active thread where someone is posting their videos and saying he prefers the 5442 as you cannot control something like gain and that results in ghosting if you do not have enough light. As always, it comes down to personal choice and YMMV!
 

kouma

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I scratched the cable with a razor a few times and nothing came out. I tried slicing it as well and the copper colour stayed true :)

is there a vendor that you recommend tor purchasing the varifocal 5442? Hoping they ship to Canada. I looked at the Hiks camera that CCTVCam recommend and it’s $300 Canadian each ouch! I calculated I might need 9 cameras, so that’s almost 3 grand just cameras. Hoping the 5442 are cheaper
 

looney2ns

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I scratched the cable with a razor a few times and nothing came out. I tried slicing it as well and the copper colour stayed true :)

is there a vendor that you recommend tor purchasing the varifocal 5442? Hoping they ship to Canada. I looked at the Hiks camera that CCTVCam recommend and it’s $300 Canadian each ouch! I calculated I might need 9 cameras, so that’s almost 3 grand just cameras. Hoping the 5442 are cheaper
On a real computer, Study this: Cliff notes.
Pay particular attention to this: IPVM Camera Calculator V3
Vendor: EmpireTech Andy | IP Cam Talk

Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-S Starlight+ | IP Cam Talk
 

Teken

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In case you were not aware there are media converters that can be used on coaxial. This will allow you to reuse the same cable for POE while reducing labor and material costs. This specific model is one of the smallest while offering true POE over coaxial and very reliable.

Keep in mind this is only rated for 100 Mbps but is fine on 4K. Insure this unit is powered by a POE+ if you intend to power more than one video camera.

 
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kouma

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Have you scratched it? CCD is copper clad aluminium in other words copper plated. You need to verify what if in the centre / below the surface so you know if it's copper or aluminium plated to look like copper.

I alos wouldn't rule out this Hikvision as it's probably the best combination of pixels, picture quality and nightvision currently at the affordable end of the market: Hikvision ColorVu + 4K (DS-2CD2087G2-L)
In case you were not aware there are media converters that can be used on coaxial. This will allow you to reuse the same cable for POE while reducing labor and material costs. This specific model is one of the smallest while offering true POE over coaxial and very reliable.

Keep in mind this is only rated for 100 Mbps but is fine on 4K. Insure this unit is powered by a POE+ if you intend to power more than one video camera.

That’s really good to know. If I haven’t learned what I have learned today from these helpful gents I would have probably went that coax to PoE route. What I thought was a professional installation wasn’t really, all my cameras are over 8 ft high, so pointless to use the existing cables and holes.
 
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SouthernYankee

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Andy will ship an where in the world.
Start with one variable focus camera and test the location and camera lens size. Test at night with motion. use a "BAD GUY" in a hoodie at night can you identify him, will the video stand up in court.

=====================
Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED . Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
.................... Dahua IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED review
IPC-T5442TM-AS ..... Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-HDW5442t-ZE .... Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE 4MP Varifocal Turret - Night Perfomance testing -- variable focus 2.7 mm-12mm 4 MP Starlight
IPC-B5442E-ZE ...... Review - OEM IPC-B5442E-ZE 4MP AI Varifocal Bullet Camera With Starlight+ -- variable 2.7mm-12mm bullet
IPC-B5442E-Z4E .... bullet 8mm-32mm variable focus zoom 4MP
IPC-HFW7442H-Z ..... Review - Dahua IPC-HFW7442H-Z 4MP Ultra AI Varifocal Bullet Camera -- 4 MP variable focus AI

=====================
if you are interested in International Dahua cameras, a forum member sells dahua (and some Hikvision) and ships world wide. You can read some of the members recommendations on his service. He also provides cameras to other forum member for evaluation and reviews.
You can email him for a quote, or purchase from his Aliexpress store or his Amazon store. The cameras are fully upgradable, he posts upgrade software when available.

I recommend email andy

Andy
@EMPIRETECANDY
kingsecurity2014@163.com
Andy's ipcamtalk vendor forum: EmpireTech Andy
Andy's AliExpress store: Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Amazing prodcuts with exclusive discounts on AliExpress
Andy's Amazon store: Amazon.com
 
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mat200

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You just said something awesome! the positions you pointed out can all be reached from the Garage. This might actually make it a lot easier to run cables. I could have a POE switch there as well, then link it to my basement infrastructure. Thank you! I can add another camera to the right of the garage to cover that side panel. So four cameras can all be connected from inside the garage! Also the garage is a lot cooler in the summer than the attic.

For these four cameras, do you have a model recommendation? Would 5442 series of cameras by Dahua do the trick?
Hi @kouma

Numerous good options.

By the garage I like the wall mount + turret combination.
( search on the form for an example.. )

by the front door I like the mini-dome wedge models..

Do check SourthYankee's list.. good place to start.

I've got older models, so those are no longer readily available.
 
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