Installing new EmpireTek IPCam

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
HI All,

I just bought a EmpireTek IPC-Color4K-T (3.6 mm) at Amazon.de.

First Few Questions.

1. Is it the same as the Dahua IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED and if so: can I install the original Firmware from Dahua's website?
2. Some pages on the webinterface is see a message that I need to install some kind of plugin for my web browser to use the full functionality.
But the link brings me to an executable and Bitdefender immediately steps in and blocks it. What does it want to install and why does this need to be installed?
3. I saw the camera being sold with: Professional, intelligent: IVS (perimeter protection), heat map, face detection, people counting.
But when I try to activate multiple I can't (I want IVS (cars and people) and face detection at the same time).
4. Why doesn't the Face Database config work for detected faces?

Thanks in advance
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,871
Reaction score
48,514
Location
USA
1. Yes it is the same camera, but Andy's firmware is usually newer and better than what is on the Dahua website (regardless of the date Dahua has). They allow him to test the firmware here and after we make comments, then they roll it out, so it may show 3 months newer, but it really isn't.

2. Yes, it is best to use Internet Explorer if you want full functionality and see all of the functions.

3. You can only use one at a time.

4. I don't think the camera has the face detection capability. In most models that means it can detect a face (Another way of human AI). But if it does work (I haven't tested it), then you would need an SD card in the camera as the memory isn't large in the camera, and/or use an NVR with that capability.
 

Broachoski

Getting comfortable
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
598
Reaction score
1,450
Location
USA
Do not upgrade the firmware
Allow the plugin to be installed. It is normaly installed from the camera itself and not the internet.
 

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
1. Yes it is the same camera, but Andy's firmware is usually newer and better than what is on the Dahua website (regardless of the date Dahua has). They allow him to test the firmware here and after we make comments, then they roll it out, so it may show 3 months newer, but it really isn't.
So the firmware on it is kind of RC for Dahua camera's. Is the released Dahua firmware ever compared (code) to Andy's firmware? I guess Andy is not the only person that is testing the firmware, so it could be possible that they integrate Andy's findings together with the other RC testers and then release as a version including all findings. If that is the case, Andy's customers would only get Andy's findings in his firmware and miss out on possible other bug splashes and improvements.

2. Yes, it is best to use Internet Explorer if you want full functionality and see all of the functions.
Thats not what I ment. It's the camera config webpage that shows a message that not all functionality is supported and that I need to download a plugin.
When clicked the Bitdefender kicks in. I would like to know what functionality is added when you use that plugin.

Internet Explorer is not the way to go as Microsoft switched to Edge (Chromium based). I think it's best to follow Microsoft/Google as they put a lot more resources on their current preferred browser. Especially with regards to security features and updates. We all put camera's for security reasons. It seems strange to me to bypass IT security from the digital world (high risk), to be able to monitor relatively tiny possible threats in the real world.

3. You can only use one at a time.
Is there a camera that I can use to only detect faces and cars that actually enter/cross my IVS area's and record the footage to my nvr?

4. I don't think the camera has the face detection capability. In most models that means it can detect a face (Another way of human AI). But if it does work (I haven't tested it), then you would need an SD card in the camera as the memory isn't large in the camera, and/or use an NVR with that capability.
It has face detection but not face recognition. I have a DAHUA DHI-NVR5216-16P-4KS2E that I'm testing the camera on. But most adjustments I do on the camera's itself as I'm still a newbie that can't find things fast enough on the NVR or settings thats are missing or not accessible on the NVR UI. But that's another topic by itself ;)

ps
The Color -4K-T will replace a IPC-HDW3441T-ZAS after reading on this forum about Sensor ratio's :D
I bought my camera's cause I relied on IPCAM specialists as I had to no time for it myself (actually building the house where I had to stick the camera's on :D) . Not satisfied with the night footage on my driveway, so I'm experimenting with this cam.
 

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
Do not upgrade the firmware
Allow the plugin to be installed. It is normaly installed from the camera itself and not the internet.
Looking at the IP I could see it was locally from the camera, but it is still a matter of trust when installing 3rd party plugins to your browser.

I have no idea what it does and why I need it, and the rule of thumb is not to install anything you don't know or can trust a 100%.
If Bitdefender is blocking it and I didn't write the code myself, I would be a fool to bypass Bitdefender and allowing it to install without any questions.

In my opinion (as a former software developer myself), this is not a user friendly and secure way to deploy unknown "extra functionality" to customers. Not even talking about companies that are in the security business themselves but who install these kind of addons without questions asked.

It's not that I think Dahua or even Andy personally may have put "bad things" in the firmware, but as a developer deploys his product, there are a lot of moments in the chain where things can go wrong (malicious code Injected on compromised hardware/software)

What I can try is setup a sandboxed laptop with no access to my local network and check what it actually does and sending it to Bitdefender to assess.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the help I can get. But I'm just not one of those people who just run scripts, code and programs they find on the Internet without actually understanding why it does what it does and if it is really needed. Afterwards you read/hear/see about them on forums/news when their data is corrupted, have problems with ransomware, identity theft and what have you not.

Perhaps I assume the worst in security matters, but I don't consider that a bad thing :D
 
Last edited:

jarrow

Pulling my weight
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Messages
159
Reaction score
170
Location
NL
Is there a camera that I can use to only detect faces and cars that actually enter/cross my IVS area's and record the footage to my nvr?
You can set a region in which the faces should be detected. Don't think it can be done based on IVS trips.

I have no idea what it does and why I need it, and the rule of thumb is not to install anything you don't know or can trust a 100%.
If you're concerned about security risks of installing unknown plugins (which isn't a bad thing to do), you could change the settings from within a sandbox VM which has only access to the LAN of the cam or you could connect a PC without internet access directly to the cam using a POE injector or switch (or even a 12V supply).

All the cams I've bought in the last year and a half from Andy or otherwise didn't prompt me to download a plugin, only had it happen when working on older Dahua cams placed by other installers.

It has face detection but not face recognition. I have a DAHUA DHI-NVR5216-16P-4KS2E that I'm testing the camera on. But most adjustments I do on the camera's itself as I'm still a newbie that can't find things fast enough on the NVR or settings thats are missing or not accessible on the NVR UI. But that's another topic by itself
It's better to do the settings directly in the cam, the NVR sometimes messes things up when writing settings to the cams.
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,871
Reaction score
48,514
Location
USA
Yes there are folks here that tear the firmware apart and look at the code line by line. Andy's firmware is generally the better firmware when compared to what Dahua puts on their website.

Try to find another vendor that has the relationship with Dahua that Andy does - you won't find it. They are constantly wining and dining Andy and flying him to their HQ and let's him sell new models before they let anyone else sell them, including Dahua themselves. Find me a model being sold by another reseller that Andy hasn't sold first.

You will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers.
  • Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. We have had it for years, but their other customers do not have this. This infrared adjusts based on the object in the frame to eliminate the washed-out face at night.
  • Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. If you purchase this camera anywhere else OR update this camera with the latest firmware on Dahua website you will lose autotracking - tell me how that is an improvement over Andy's firmware...
  • We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.
Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...

In the last 3 years, there have been at least 4 models that were brought here first by Andy. Do a search for World's First Review here and you will see the reviews.


I hear you about browsers, but if you want full functionality, these camera manufacturers have designed the firmware around Internet Explorer. Folks here that tear the firmware apart can see how the firmware responds from different browsers. Sometimes you get lucky and it works with other browsers, but many times they don't. In the World's first review thread for this camera, one of the members that tears firmware apart noticed these things and still recommends Internet Explorer even for new cameras (he would prefer that not be the case either but none of us designed the hardware or firmware)....



Ironically security cameras are not very secure, which is why we isolate them from the internet and do not give them internet access. Many of us use an old laptop that is not connected to the internet or or LAN to set the camera up initially.

So you have to decide do you want better cameras (that you can isolate from the internet) and deal with plug-ins or do you want to go with cloud based that don't require plug-ins but need internet access to work and thus leaving yourself open to all the hacking and backdoor vulnerabilities in these types of devices... Better to simply not give the camera access to the internet and minimize the risk.

That plug-in file is fine. That file allows you to see the live stream and some of the features of the camera.

Keep in mind how the "unknown Publisher" or "potential virus" messages are generated (just called virus moving forward in the rest of this post for simplicity).

It is not a virus, rather it is whatever antivirus you are using has flagged it as a potential virus. Some programs look at the total number of users and below a certain number, it is flagged. These specialty type files/programs get false positives all the time.

You can check the file with VirusTotal , an antivirus website owned by Google that runs it thru a lot of different antivirus algorithms.


As far as this camera with night performance, keep in mind this is a full-color camera that means it cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are unwilling to use it with the built-in white LEDs, then it is the wrong camera. Too many buy full-color cameras thinking they are magic and can see in zero darkness and that is not the case.

A great camera put in a wrong field of view or trying to do too much with it will result in poor performance.
 
Last edited:

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
You can set a region in which the faces should be detected. Don't think it can be done based on IVS trips.
It would be nice to have IVS for general footage (So you can see number plates and model from cars and human features like clothing and behavior) + closeup images of the face (if detectable)

All the cams I've bought in the last year and a half from Andy or otherwise didn't prompt me to download a plugin, only had it happen when working on older Dahua cams placed by other installers.
Strange, for me it's the opposite: The HDW3441T-ZAS didn't ask me to install a plugin and the newer Color-4K did.
But they also have a different Web interface (V3 and V5)

HDW3441T-ZAS : WEB Version 3.2.1.1278456
Color-4K-T: Web Version V5.01.0.1315826

It's better to do the settings directly in the cam, the NVR sometimes messes things up when writing settings to the cams.
Thank you for sharing that! 8)
 

jarrow

Pulling my weight
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Messages
159
Reaction score
170
Location
NL
It would be nice to have IVS for general footage (So you can see number plates and model from cars and human features like clothing and behavior) + closeup images of the face (if detectable)
Yes that won't be possible with one cam. The processing power is not enough to do both at a time, I assume. The closeup image is not anything more enhanced than you'd get viewing the IVS detection, only cropped at a moment when the face is detected.

Strange, for me it's the opposite: The HDW3441T-ZAS didn't ask me to install a plugin and the newer Color-4K did.
Ok, I haven't used the Color-4K-T so that'll be it.
 

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
Yes there are folks here that tear the firmware apart and look at the code line by line. Andy's firmware is generally the better firmware when compared to what Dahua puts on their website.
I was just saying that as a company, it is better to gather information from multiple sources and then combining all of the findings, instead of relying on just a single person.

Does Andy askes why they don't put his findings in their new firmware (per incident)? The answers could be interesting for multiple reasons :)
As a former developer I learned that my engineering logic is not always the common users logic. So often I had to "dumb down" UI functionality to keep usability
in check. But then again, there are also "managers" with a "if-it-ain't-broke" mentality: It sells and it works as advertised...why change it? Let's put that functionality as a selling point for our next product (grrrrrr!)

Try to find another vendor that has the relationship with Dahua that Andy does - you won't find it. ....cut....
Thank you for the background information :)

I hear you about browsers, but if you want full functionality, these camera manufacturers have designed the firmware around Internet Explorer.
Thank you, I will look into that thread.

Ironically security cameras are not very secure, which is why we isolate them from the internet and do not give them internet access. Many of us use an old laptop that is not connected to the internet or or LAN to set the camera up initially.
So how does the remote viewing works if it is not connected to the Internet? I have a VTO2202F and one of the nice features is answering calls at the door on my phone when I'm not home. Or pushing IVS alarms to my phone when people enter or park on my driveway, or commanding our Belgian Malinois to let go of a perp when he/she entered the garden and the police has arrived.

So you have to decide do you want better cameras (that you can isolate from the internet) and deal with plug-ins or do you want to go with cloud based that don't require plug-ins but need internet access to work and thus leaving yourself open to all the hacking and backdoor vulnerabilities in these types of devices... Better to simply not give the camera access to the internet and minimize the risk.
I use PFsense with IDS + geofencing + VLANS and "special rules" for "phone-home" devices and apps to keep my network(s) segregated.

Keep in mind how the "unknown Publisher" or "potential virus" messages are generated (just called virus moving forward in the rest of this post for simplicity).
A valid certificate could help with that.

As far as this camera with night performance, keep in mind this is a full-color camera that means it cannot see infrared, so if you do not have enough light or are unwilling to use it with the built-in white LEDs, then it is the wrong camera. Too many buy full-color cameras thinking they are magic and can see in zero darkness and that is not the case.

A great camera put in a wrong field of view or trying to do too much with it will result in poor performance.
If only I had the knowledge I have today, I would have come to this forum 3 years ago :D 8)
 

sb[nl]

n3wb
Joined
Mar 4, 2023
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
Netherlands
Yes that won't be possible with one cam. The processing power is not enough to do both at a time, I assume. The closeup image is not anything more enhanced than you'd get viewing the IVS detection, only cropped at a moment when the face is detected.
Crap :D So I need to leave the 3441 for general footage and also install the Color for face detection. Can't wait for the jokes I will hear from my neighbors and family :D
 
Top