1/3" CMOS @ 4 MP versus 1/2.7 @ 5 MP - I have questions

[mattyp]

I need to buy 2 cameras for basic residential use. I was comparing well recommended cameras, and know the 1/2.7 has a bigger image sensor. (seems counterintuative, but this is accoding to a site I found on actual diameters)

SO the first easy question is as a general rule am i to assume the image sensor size is MORE important the Megapixals?

And second: The camera recommend in here (empire's Loryita 4Mp turret) $80 and is sporting a smaller senson and less MP. Others are cheaper (the Amcrest, the Anpviz) so I am in need of guidance as to why we are recommending this "rebranded" dahua when others on paper seem better on paper at a cheaper price. THey also have the reviews to back it.

Specifically I am looking at the following 3:

• Loryta 4MP Starlight POE IR Turret IP Camera WDR IP67 Weatherproof Outdoor,Support IVS, Built-in Mic, Built-in IR LED, High Image Definition, Fixed Lens IPC-T2431T-AS 2.8mm
  • (As recommned in here)
• Anpviz 5MP PoE IP Dome Camera with Microphone, Audio, IP Security Camera Outdoor Night Vision 98ft Weatherproof IP66 Indoor Wide Angle 2.8mm, #IPC-D250W-S
• Amcrest 5MP UltraHD PoE Outdoor Turret Camera 2.8mm Lens IP5M-T1179EW-28MM

So i trust you all as experts so afraid I might be missing something. This is a rather large investment for me once i get the NVM and all that so need guidance.

First post and I am a total Noob, so go easy on me.

 

[wittaj]

A few tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor.

You are looking at 3 budget cams, which use lessor quality material and sensors to sell a MP that the uninformed general public thinks they want. As an example, unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

Sensor sizing can confuse a lot of people LOL.

It is simple division:

1 divided by 3 equals 0.333

1 divided by 2.8 equals 0.357

Is a 1/2.8" sensor bigger than a 1/1.8" sensor? Most people say yes LOL. But it is a fraction, so the 1/1.8" sensor is the bigger of the two.

This applies to camera sensors too LOL:




The 3 cameras you reference above are considered budget cameras. The 2431 will only be recommended for those on a super tight budget, but for not much more a better 2MP or the 4MP 5442 series would be the better bet. The dome should be avoided for outdoors - you get glare, rain drops that stick to it, dust, etc.

Stay away from those 5MP. Ideal sensor size is:

2MP = 1/2.8"
4MP = 1/1.8"
8MP = 1/1.2"

So simply doing a ratio, a 5MP would need a 1/1.65" sensor to be comparable, and we just do not see a 5MP on a sensor any larger than 1/2.7".

A 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor will kick the but of your 3 referenced cameras all night long. That 4MP will need over double the light of the 2MP at night.

How many of the reviews that you saw on those 5MP cameras were based on motion at night? Any camera can be made to give a great static image and all the Amazon reviews on those cameras are based on that.

The budget cam will make for an ok overview camera, but you shouldn't expect IDENTIFY capabilities from it in most instances.

 

[Old Timer]

The larger the sensor, the more area you have to capture light.
The more megapixels, the sharper the picture will be.
You can't have both unless you have a huge pocketbook.

I actually have both of those cameras. I like the 2431 as an overall camera and it works well.
The Amcrest 1179 also works well, and I have one running full color at my front porch.

I also have several of the IPC-T5442TM-AS cameras both in fixed lens and variable. This camera outshines both of the others at night images.
I have the 1179 on one side of the porch, and a 5442 in 3.6 on the other side. I have a 10 watt LED light in the top of the porch and both of these provide full color all day and night. The 5442 is quite a ways better then the 1179, but the 1179 is usable.

The porch is the 1179, the drive is the 5442 before I added the 5442 to the porch.

 

[mattyp]

Wow, i certainly came to the right place. I totally didnt understand that was a fraction, i thought it was 2 indicators of entirely different measurements. lol embarrassing. Of course now it makes more sense. Well in my case i was looking for something less than $80. But it sounds like you would consider the first "worthy" camera about $150. Sound like you both would feel the extra $70 is worth it for my main camera (front porch and deck) based on the sensor size.

 

[mat200]

Wow, i certainly came to the right place. I totally didnt understand that was a fraction, i thought it was 2 indicators of entirely different measurements. lol embarrassing. Of course now it makes more sense. Well in my case i was looking for something less than $80. But it sounds like you would consider the first "worthy" camera about $150. Sound like you both would feel the extra $70 is worth it for my main camera (front porch and deck) based on the sensor size.

Welcome @mattyp

Hard to know, as we don't know your financial situation as well as your possible risks / threats.

If you can afford a 4MP 1/1.8" sensor varifocal model - that would be a great model to pick up and learn more with .. as it will be very useful to learn with as well as keep.

You can then purchase a cheaper camera(s) and get some good comparisons and contrasts.

Numerous members have posted reviews here, so you can go through those and get an idea of what is possible.

 

[Flintstone61]

the IPC-T2431T-AS is an older model now a days.....It's got it's uses though.

 

[Flintstone61]

Here is an Amcrest 5MP on a 1/2.7 sensor. But its got 24 hour light. I have 3 of the 1179Ew's in the laundry rooms. They work in good light. they're low light capability is ok, if they have a little light to work with. And they have audio. But a child could walk up and figure out how to unclip it from it's mount, so it's nothing I'm putting outdoors.

 

[Flintstone61]

Heres a 5442-ZE varifocal lens camera. Sometimes I mess with the zoom and I can this shot can get out of focus, looking to infinity. But on this day it was quite clear.

 

[Zook]

The larger the sensor, the more area you have to capture light.
The more megapixels, the sharper the picture will be.
You can't have both unless you have a huge pocketbook.

I actually have both of those cameras. I like the 2431 as an overall camera and it works well.
The Amcrest 1179 also works well, and I have one running full color at my front porch.

I also have several of the IPC-T5442TM-AS cameras both in fixed lens and variable. This camera outshines both of the others at night images.
I have the 1179 on one side of the porch, and a 5442 in 3.6 on the other side. I have a 10 watt LED light in the top of the porch and both of these provide full color all day and night. The 5442 is quite a ways better then the 1179, but the 1179 is usable.

The porch is the 1179, the drive is the 5442 before I added the 5442 to the porch.

Keep in mind, all of these outside images with snow won't be as bright once the snow melts.
That snow reflects A LOT of light.
All statements still hold true though and fine tuning will likely be needed for motion blur and other stuffs.

The guys here are the real deal!

 

[sebastiantombs]

If you want a less expensive camera but need good night vision look at the 2231 series if you don't need audio or the 3241 series if you do need audio. Both are 2MP and quite capable at night. the 2231T-ZS is a varifocal to boot and so is the 3241T-ZAS. The 2231 is in the $120 range and the 3241 is in the $135 range. The 3241 also has some basic AI, person/vehicle detection.

 

[mattyp]

Are the varifocal cams all "motorized"? OR, do we use screws to focus them as i saw somewhere?
I like the suggestion of the 3241 as it says varifocal, but assume this is not motorized. I do NOT need the added expense of a motor inside it.
Also, is the cliff notes up to date? (IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes) seems the recommended camera is from 2018. What IS the most recommended poE camera now?

 

[Flintstone61]

3241 motorized

 

[mattyp]

3241 motorized

How do i control this? Do i use the software? It just seems that once i get my camera dialed in i would never use a motor again so seems lind of like a waste, but a varifocal sounds better until i learn what lens i need.

 

[Flintstone61]

it's in the web interface at the Ip address of the camera when you log in. or In Blue iris as well. under the tab, zoom and focus usually.
It's nice to have the ability to tweak the camera after you get it installed. i hate hate hate the manual zoom stuff. had 3 of them before i swapped over to IP cams.

 

[Flintstone61]

Plus....IF you EVER decide to swap it for a fixed lens, and move it to another location,,,,BOOM, you got a varifocal which gives you options at the next location.

 

[Mike A.]

Are the varifocal cams all "motorized"? OR, do we use screws to focus them as i saw somewhere?
I like the suggestion of the 3241 as it says varifocal, but assume this is not motorized. I do NOT need the added expense of a motor inside it.
Also, is the cliff notes up to date? (IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes) seems the recommended camera is from 2018. What IS the most recommended poE camera now?

Virtually all vari-focal cams will be motorized now with auto-focus. Those screws were a huge pain in the ass trying to balance back and forth to get the zoom and focus right. Be happy that they're gone if you never had to deal with them.

 

[looney2ns]

Are the varifocal cams all "motorized"? OR, do we use screws to focus them as i saw somewhere?
I like the suggestion of the 3241 as it says varifocal, but assume this is not motorized. I do NOT need the added expense of a motor inside it.
Also, is the cliff notes up to date? (IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes) seems the recommended camera is from 2018. What IS the most recommended poE camera now?

The cameras included in the cliff notes, are out dated models. But all the other info is very much relevant to this day.
The most recommended POE cam is the 5442 series. Dahua/Loryta/Empiretech cams.
Always avoid "dome" versions of any camera that will be outdoors.

Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua) | IP Cam Talk

(20) Review-OEM IPC-T3241-ZAS 2mp AI Lite series Varifocal | IP Cam Talk

 

[theoriginaljack]

A few tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor.

You are looking at 3 budget cams, which use lessor quality material and sensors to sell a MP that the uninformed general public thinks they want. As an example, unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

Sensor sizing can confuse a lot of people LOL.

It is simple division:

1 divided by 3 equals 0.333

1 divided by 2.8 equals 0.357

Is a 1/2.8" sensor bigger than a 1/1.8" sensor? Most people say yes LOL. But it is a fraction, so the 1/1.8" sensor is the bigger of the two.

This applies to camera sensors too LOL:

View attachment 115403


The 3 cameras you reference above are considered budget cameras. The 2431 will only be recommended for those on a super tight budget, but for not much more a better 2MP or the 4MP 5442 series would be the better bet. The dome should be avoided for outdoors - you get glare, rain drops that stick to it, dust, etc.

Stay away from those 5MP. Ideal sensor size is:

2MP = 1/2.8"
4MP = 1/1.8"
8MP = 1/1.2"

So simply doing a ratio, a 5MP would need a 1/1.65" sensor to be comparable, and we just do not see a 5MP on a sensor any larger than 1/2.7".

A 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor will kick the but of your 3 referenced cameras all night long. That 4MP will need over double the light of the 2MP at night.

How many of the reviews that you saw on those 5MP cameras were based on motion at night? Any camera can be made to give a great static image and all the Amazon reviews on those cameras are based on that.

The budget cam will make for an ok overview camera, but you shouldn't expect IDENTIFY capabilities from it in most instances.

Thanks for this detailed reply. Silly question, having already made the mistake of buying a 8MP camera, would lowering the resolution setting on it help with night time quality?

 

[Mike A.]

Thanks for this detailed reply. Silly question, having already made the mistake of buying a 8MP camera, would lowering the resolution setting on it help with night time quality?

No. The sensor (and whatever overall light gathering and image processing) remains the same. That doesn't change with the resolution setting. You're just changing things as displayed.

There are some cams/sensors that can use what's called pixel binning to group pixels together to do that but not available yet in security cams as far as I know.

 

[wittaj]

Unfortunately, downrezing a camera does not work - It is still using the 8 million pixels - the camera doesn't change the "pixel resolution screen" on the camera when you go from 8MP to 2MP. The sensor still needs 4 times the light going from 8MP to 2MP, so the native 2MP camera will result in a better image at night. The firmware will make some algorithm attempt at downrezing it, but it could be a complete crap image or a somewhat usable image, but if there is a concern that the 8MP isn't performing or wouldn't perform well at night, then it is better to go with the 2MP.

Because of this, even if the MP/sensor ratio is not ideal, it is better to run the camera at the native resolution than to downrez and rely on the camera algorithm to downrez it.

I have a 4MP and 2MP on the same 1/2.8" sensor and the picture quality is quite different between the two and the 2MP kicks it's butt at night, so the differences with an 8MP would be even larger.

In most instances, you want to get a camera that will perform at your location for the worse situation, which for most of us is at night when it is dark and there is little to no light. If a camera performs at night, it is easier to tweak settings to make it work during the day than it is the other way around.

My 2MP cameras outperform my neighbors 4K (8MP) cameras....why....because they are both on the same size sensor.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system but mine. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 8MP system provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night.

My neighbor tried the "I will just downrez the 8MP to 2MP" and the image was a soft dark mess.

His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY here based on my recommendation and seeing my results. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4k cameras and he cannot figure out why downrezing from 8MP to 2MP doesn't work properly... It is all about the amount of light needed and getting the right camera for the right location and downrezing doesn't change the physics of the camera.